How Communist China Weaponized Interpol to Hunt Down Dissidents: Dolkun Isa

[FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW] In 1997, the Chinese communist regime labeled Uyghur human rights activist Dolkun Isa a “criminal,” and put him on Interpol’s list of most dangerous fugitives. After 9/11, they added another label: “Terrorist.” He has been detained and expelled at the border of multiple countries, and narrowly escaped being extradited back to China.

He’s the author of “The China Freedom Trap: My Life on the Run.” In this episode, he exposes the harrowing effects of the long arm of Chinese transnational repression.

Views expressed in this video are opinions of the host and the guest, and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Epoch Times.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Jan Jekielek:
Dolkun lsa, such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.

Dolkun lsa:
Thank you very much. It’s my pleasure.

Mr. Jekielek:
You’ve written an astonishingly good book, The China Freedom Trap, that tells us about the realities of life under the rule of communist China. Please tell us why you chose this title.

Mr. lsa:
That is a good question. This book is not simply my biography, it is the personal experience that I have faced from the Chinese Communist Party’s transnational repression. All the experience in the book I have written is what’s happening in the free world, not in authoritarian regimes like Central Asia. I was detained in so many countries that were democratic countries;
Germany, United States, Italy, India, Turkey, and Switzerland.

That’s why I gave this name, “The China Freedom Trap,” because this is happening in free countries. I would like to share my experience to warn the world that I’m a citizen of a democratic country and I’m living in the free world, but I still have been subjected to and suffered by the CCP’s long arm. That’s why I gave this name to this book.

Mr. Jekielek:
That’s amazing. When you talk about the long arm, it has been the long arm for over decades. You mentioned transnational repression which you hear in human rights circles. What does that actually mean?

Mr. lsa:
It is when one country, particularly an authoritarian country, uses its diplomatic and economic power, and misuses the international system to control people who are living in the diaspora or who are asylum seekers. At the same time, this transnational repression also destroys the civil society of democracies and tries to influence the rule of law. This is my understanding. I’m not an expert on the term, but I’m always suffering from transnational repression.

Mr. Jekielek:
You are an expert because you have experienced it. Your story started back in 1988. Please tell us what happened.

Mr. lsa:
I was a student in the 1980s. I studied physics at Xinjiang University. Before I came to Xinjiang University, many Uyghurs, including myself, viewed ourselves as second-class citizens in China. We just didn’t know. Actually, I didn’t have an idea of what kind of rights we should have.

We think, “We are second class. We should not have equal rights with the Chinese people.” Most Uyghurs think this, because they have never enjoyed equality, particularly since the occupation by the Chinese Communist Party. Even before the Chinese Communist Party and the Kuomintang time there was a lot of discrimination, especially during the Manchu imperial time.

We’ve suffered a lot for many years, so that’s why. But when I came to the university in 1980, it changed my mind, because every Wednesday afternoon, we have a political class in China. In this political class sometimes we learn the Chinese Constitution and the Autonomous Law. We read the Chinese Constitution and the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Law. We have a lot of rights.

For example, the Uyghur language is our primary language and has the same level of importance as the Chinese language. Culturally and politically we have a lot of rights. This is on paper and it’s in the Constitution. We have a lot of rights, so why are we not enjoying these rights?

But if you look at daily life, we faced a lot of discrimination. This is the turning point in my mind. Then, I thought, “For any right not given to you, you have to demand it. You have to fight for this.” Most of the Uyghurs, they don’t know what kind of rights they have. But you have to educate them.

Maybe 75 percent of Uyghurs are illiterate, because 80 percent of Uyghurs live in rural areas. They’re farmers. There is no school, so people can’t read. If the people are illiterate and cannot read and write, then they don’t understand what kind of rights they have.

That’s why I was thinking, “Okay, first step, we have to educate the people and teach them the alphabet. Then, we educate the people that we are equal. We have equal rights with other Chinese people. Then, we demand our rights, constitutional rights, autonomous rights.”

This is my opinion, and I discuss with my colleagues, my friends, that we establish a student culture and science union. We mobilized thousands of students during the summer and winter holiday. Voluntarily, we went to the rural area to teach farmers. But when we started the activity, we had to face a lot of barriers and problems. I didn’t understand why.

We had not done anything against the Chinese Constitution or policy. But they didn’t want to increase our overall educational level. In 1988, we had a five-hour debate with the high-level Chinese Communist Party leadership in the Xinjiang Autonomous Regional Committee. The Party Secretary, the Minister of Education, the Minister of Finance, and the Minister of the Planning Committee were there. We had a five-hour debate and we talked a lot, but we couldn’t compromise.

Then I returned to the university and we held a huge protest meeting against discrimination policy. We demanded equal rights. We demanded democratic elections. We protested the one-child policy. We were also asking the government to stop nuclear testing.

From 1964 until 1996, the Chinese government did nuclear weapons tests in the Lop Nur area more than 46 times. Because of this, a huge number of Uyghurs died from disease and quite a lot of young babies were born with disabilities, so that’s why we had to stop it. This is one issue. Also, stopping nuclear testing was an international action at that time, because of world peace.

I was house arrested. Then we took the demonstration and went to the street with more than 5,000 people. That night I was house arrested for more than four months. Then I was kicked out of the university, so that’s why I was not able to graduate from university.

This discrimination existed all the time. Some people thought, “Oh, this Uyghur problem just started in 2016 or 2017, it’s very new. That’s not true. This problem has existed for a long time, only the level is different. Since Xi Jinping took power in 2013, China’s discrimination and assimilation policy against Uyghurs changed into a genocidal policy.

Before there were no concentration camps. Before there were not a million Uyghur children separated from their families. But, at the educational level and daily level, we have always faced discrimination. When we started this demonstration in 1988, I was kicked out of university. That is the short story of my activism.

Mr. Jekielek:
A big part of your story is how this long arm of the CCP just followed you wherever you went in life afterwards. We know what happened in 1989 in Tiananmen Square. It was a student movement. Afterwards, China under the CCP got the message from the U.S. and from other countries to not worry about that so much.

Then in 1999, they started persecuting the Falun Gong. They got the same message not to worry about that so much. With the Tibetans, it was the same situation. Even after 2008, after the big demonstration by the Tibetans, they really tried to smash that movement through transnational repression, which has escalated.

Of course, the Uyghurs have been persecuted the whole time. But around 2014 through 2016, they got to this genocidal policy, as you know. If the world had responded to these other persecutions in a meaningful way, maybe this would never have happened. What are your thoughts?

Mr. lsa:
I completely agree with you. China’s government would not have come to this point. Today, the Chinese government is committing genocide against Uyghurs, cultural genocide of the Tibetans, persecution of Falun Gong practitioners, and persecution of human rights lawyers in China. Today, Taiwan’s sovereignty is endangered by the CCP. Hong Kong democracy has disappeared. This is all not coming in one day, as you say. It is step by step and China is testing the world.

For example, regarding the Uyghurs, after Xi Jinping took power in 2013, his first step in 2014 was to launch the one-year strike-hard campaign. We made statements and were doing advocacy work. The UN Human Rights Council made statements. My colleagues visited congressmen, senators, and the State Department. They are listening to us. I traveled all over the world talking in European countries.

It was a very soft reaction. Actually, no one really took a strong position on this. Then Xi Jinping said, “Okay, now I’m strong enough. The entire world needs my money. I’m strong and powerful enough, so I can do anything.” Starting in 2014, people cannot fast during Ramadan. We were forbidden from fasting.

Normally, during the Ramadan time, Uyghur restaurants are closed until dinner time during the break for Ramadan. Now, you have to open the restaurant and you have to sell cigarettes and alcohol and remove the halal sign from the restaurant. They were testing. There was not a single reaction from the Muslim world or any religious entity.
Next, for the second step, in 2017, they collected all Qurans and textbooks. There was not a single reaction from the Muslim world. Then Xi Jinping thought, “Okay, this is good.” Then they tested the Western world. They collected passports and shut down the internet in East Turkestan. We cannot call family members, but there was no reaction.

Human Rights Watch and some international organizations just published reports or statements. But hardly any country reacted to this. Xi Jinping says, “Okay.” Then he put a million people in concentration camps. As you say, Falun Gong was cracked down on by China in 1999. This time some countries are speaking very empty statements, but we have never seen real action against the Chinese government. There was no warning to China. Then China thinks, “I’m strong enough, nobody will do anything.”

Then in 2019 it was the Hong Kong democracy movement. According to international convention, Hong Kong’s democracy is one country, two systems. It should not be changed until 50 years pass. But you have seen that 20 years later, they changed everything. This is the situation. The international arena and particularly democratic countries just ignored this because of temporary benefits, because of money, and because of the business.

There is one thing I have to emphasize. China is now the second biggest economy in the world. But at the time of the Tiananmen Massacre in 1989, China was not the second biggest economy. China needed Western technology, Western money, and Western investment. After the Tiananmen Massacre, the U.S. and the European Union sanctioned China.

But these sanctions were not good enough. China didn’t say anything because China needed Western money and technology. The U.S. leaders, particularly during Clinton’s time, said, “If China is economically developed, this economic development will bring political reform.”

Now, China has developed and is the second biggest economy, but uses its power as an example for other authoritarian regimes. China has become a symbol and a model. I went to many UN Human Rights Council meetings. The authoritarian countries now have more voice than democratic countries, unfortunately.

The Human Rights Council at the UN is led by China. Everyone is saying, “Oh, China is great.” The U.S. and the European countries are responsible for this. They got the wrong interpretation of the CCP and for temporary benefit gave a lot of opportunities to China. The CCP not only threatens Falun Gong, Uyghurs, Hong Kongers, and Tibetans. Today, the CCP is a threat to the national sovereignty of the United States, the national sovereignty of other neighboring countries, and a threat to global democracy and human rights.

Mr. Jekielek:
In 1989, the same day of the Tiananmen Square Massacre was the same day of the first post-communist democratic elections in Poland. A central European country, Poland, went one way, and China went a different way.
It’s like America got drunk on the idea that we have the best system and everybody will become like us. Francis Fukuyama had an idea called, “the end of history,” so there was an ideological thing there, too.

Your book, The China Freedom Trap, is like a textbook to show how that could work. Because the moment you went into exile your problems started. But you stayed alive, which wasn’t necessarily guaranteed. Please tell us about what happened when you left China.

Mr. lsa:
I left China in 1994. After I left, my whole family suffered a lot. My family is monitored and watched by the Chinese police 24 hours a day. Uyghur traditions are about relatives visiting each other all the time and showing respect to the elderly. This is our tradition and we have a lot of relatives. But friends and relatives who visit my family and parents, the police will interrogate them the next day and ask, “Why are you visiting? What did you talk about?” Then people are scared. Even relatives are scared to visit my parents. My parents and my family were isolated by society. This is one thing.

China put my name on the Interpol list in 1997 while I was in exile. In 1997, there was nearly no one who was Uyghur on the list. But the CCP is thinking long term and into the future. They say, “Maybe we have to cut this early. We have to stop this at the beginning.” At that time, there was no World Uyghur Congress or World Uyghur Youth Congress.

I was the co-founder of World Uyghur Youth Congress. We didn’t have money and our advocacy capacity was very low. We didn’t have experience with the UN or international advocacy. We were mostly doing community work. Sometimes we were joining international conferences and cooperating with Tibetan people, that’s all.

In 1997, China put my name on the Interpol list, but I didn’t know about it. In 1999, I had a refugee status travel document. I was not a German citizen yet, because I came to Germany as a political asylum seeker. I got an invitation to a conference in the United States. I went to Frankfurt to the U.S. Consulate for a visa application. I gave them my passport and all my documents, and I’m waiting.

After 30 minutes, the security guys came to me and said, “Come on, come on.” I was surprised, what happened? My passport is inside and I have been waiting. They were very rude and took me out of the U.S. Consulate in Frankfurt. There was a German police car waiting outside and they said, “Please, come with us to the police station.” I said, “Sure, okay.”

One of my friends was with me and wanted to come along. They said, “No, you cannot take this police car, you can go separately,” and gave him the address. They took me to the police station. At the beginning, the German police made jokes with me, “Oh, maybe someone has misunderstood.” They were joking, “Did you kill someone?”

I could never imagine that in my whole lifetime, I never even killed a chicken, so how can I kill people? A couple of hours later, the police came to me showing a photo and asking, “Is this you?” I look at it and it’s my photo, my name on the paper, the name of my parents, and the address of my hometown. They were asking, “Is this you?” I got scared and I wouldn’t say it was me. I told them, “That just looks like me.” They said, “If this guy is you, you will be arrested today.”

Mr. Jekielek:
That paper you were looking at was an Interpol Red Notice.

Mr. lsa:
At that time, I didn’t know what an Interpol Red Notice was. They just show me something. Then the police tell me, “You have an arrest warrant from Interpol.” I was shocked and I call my lawyer immediately, and he talked with them. I was thinking, “The Chinese government played such a dirty game against me for so many years.”

The police told me, “If this photo is of you, you will be arrested.” I thought, “How many years do I have to stay in jail? Okay, I’m ready to stay in jail in Germany, but what if they send me back to China, what should I do?” I was thinking about this very quickly. The police’s attitude soon changed. Before they made jokes with me.

Now when I went to the toilet, the police accompanied me. Before, they just showed me the toilet, then okay. Now I knew the situation was serious. Five or six hours later, the police came to me and said, “You are a political asylum seeker, because you were a student leader. They got all my interviews and texts. They collected all the information about me and they said, “Your asylum request was accepted by Germany, so you will be protected under German law.”

“You will not have a problem on the border of the European Union. If you go to the United States, maybe you will be arrested at the border, but you will not be sent to China. You will be sent back to Germany. But you should be extremely careful. Don’t travel to any Asian country or any country which has a special relationship with China.” I thought, “Wow, okay.”

Mr. Jekielek:
An Interpol Red Notice is for serious criminals and is one of the worst designations. It is for tracking down transnational criminals.

Mr. lsa:
Yes it is for criminals doing human trafficking, drugs, murder, money laundering, and such kinds of issues. I told the police, “I didn’t know I’m such a big criminal.” Then I talked with my lawyer. He said, “It’s no problem, this is Germany, you will be protected, it’s refugee law.” Actually, this arrest warrant was issued in 1997, but I learned about it two years later, in 1999. This was the first step.

At that time, China didn’t label me as a terrorist, because the Chinese government didn’t use the word terrorist for the Uyghur movement until the 9/11 terrorist attack. That’s why China at the beginning labeled me as a “killer,” and labeled me as having established a criminal gang. At that time, China labeled the Uyghur movement as religious fundamentalists or separatists. This is the most common negative label for the Uyghurs.

But after the 9/11 terrorist attack, the Chinese government immediately changed the language. Because we are Muslim, it was very easy. It was a perfect opportunity to crack down on the Uyghurs. The Chinese government immediately said, “The Uyghurs are terrorists. We are victims of terrorism.”

Then in 2003, the Chinese government issued an official terror watch-list of 4 Uyghur organizations in exile and 11 individuals. China’s Ministry of Public Security published it. My name is number three on the list. After that, China labeled me as a terrorist and changed my status with Interpol. I left China in 1994, and nine years later, I was labeled as a terrorist.

This terrorist attack in New York happened in 2001. In 2003, China issued the list. They say, “Dolkun is doing some terrorist activities in China.” I already left China nine years ago, but China still labeled me. This label really affected my personal life and family life. For some UN events and background checks, I couldn’t get accreditation. A lot of international NGOs very carefully avoided us. At the activities and organizational level, we had a lot of hard times.

I also mentioned this today at the book launch event. In fact, my son was born in Germany and he never visited East Turkestan, my hometown. My daughter was born in Beijing, actually, because my wife worked in Beijing. When I left China in 1994, at that time, my wife was three-and-a-half months pregnant with my daughter. Five-and-a-half months later, my daughter was born. The first time I saw my daughter she was three-and-a-half years old, and I brought her to Germany.

Now, everybody knows about the Uyghur issue. But 10 or 15 years ago, my children were small and they didn’t talk to me as well. Just a couple of years ago, my son and daughter were chatting with me and said, “Father, now I’m proud of you. But 10 years ago, even five or six years ago, I hated you, because we had faced a lot of discrimination and isolation from our classmates.”

People asked them, “Is Dolkun Isa your father?” They told my children, “Your father is a terrorist, so you are terrorists.” My children couldn’t explain it, but they didn’t tell me at that time. They were thinking, “Why aren’t we the children of normal people? Why are we called terrorists?” My children didn’t have any friends and everyone avoided them.

Sometimes, even the teacher discriminated against them, but I didn’t know that. Just three or four years ago, they were sitting there telling us this because I had criticized them. I said, “Look, why don’t you join the demonstration? Why don’t you join the activism?” They said, “Look, can you just listen to us? We had such a difficult time as children.”

Mr. Jekielek:
They were quiet and they didn’t say anything.

Mr. lsa:
They didn’t understand and they couldn’t defend themselves. Nobody listened to them. This Interpol Red Notice not only affected the organizational level, it affected family and daily life and everything.

Mr. Jekielek:
This is the weaponization of the international system in order to persecute people.

Mr. lsa:
Yes, exactly. China misuses Interpol. Not only China, several authoritarian countries today like Russia and Iran also misuse Interpol. China misuses it perfectly.

Mr. Jekielek:
It took 21 years for your red notice to be finally lifted. But at the time, when it was lifted, the head of Interpol was Chinese. That totalitarian dictatorship put up the head of Interpol. But soon after your red notice was lifted, that head of Interpol went to China and was never heard from again. He was still the head of Interpol, but he disappeared and no one knows what happened. Later we learn what actually happened, but overall, this is a crazy story.

Mr. lsa:
Yes. After Meng Hongwei, the former head of Interpol, disappeared and was jailed in China, the media said it was because he couldn’t stop my Interpol Red Notice from being canceled. Then the Chinese government could not tolerate him and maybe this is the reason why Meng Hongwei was arrested. I don’t know, to be honest.

But yes, this is true. It is a big shame about Interpol. It is such a huge organization, yet the head was from China, one of the authoritarian countries. This is not acceptable. Not only Interpol, but quite a lot of international organizations are very corrupted.

Mr. Jekielek:
There are overseas Chinese police stations in many countries around the world. Chinese human rights defenders were exposing them and we knew about them here in the West as well. They are a partnership with Chinese police, Chinese state security, and the local police in liberal democracies,
in some cases. There are paired patrols in tourist areas. What do you think about this?

Mr. lsa:
China very perfectly misuses democratic countries’ liberal rule and freedom of expression. They misuse the democratic system and the rule of law. As you said, more than 100 of these police stations were identified around the world. We had been talking about this since the beginning, and it was not new for us. We didn’t call it a Chinese police station, but we said China’s long arm transnational repression is coming to Germany, because I live in Germany and saw it happening.

We knew about this 15 years ago. The Chinese police came to a Munich event as businessmen to meet some members of the Uyghur community. They offered them cash to travel to East Turkestan to do business. There was an offer of money. This started many years ago. We reported this to the German police, but they were not willing to take care of this. They just listened to us.

Mr. Jekielek:
Were they trying to lure people back, or were they trying to compromise people? What was the plan?

Mr. lsa:
It was for different reasons. Sometimes the Chinese police come as businessmen to slowly make friends, and then do business. Then later they will say, “You have to keep quiet. You have to cooperate with us.” Because most of the Uyghurs’ family members are like hostages in East Turkestan. The police say, “If you don’t cooperate with us, you have to think of your family members back home.” They threaten them, and then they cooperate.

Mr. Jekielek:
Dolkun, since we’re talking about family, I want to mention your mother. Your mother supported you all the way through, knowing what the risks were. Please tell us about her, because you say she was the most important person to you.

Mr. lsa:
My mother was 78-years-old when she died in the concentration camp. She was not an activist or a politician. She was just a housewife, but a brave woman. When I was starting the pro-democracy movement in East Turkestan in 1988, I was kicked out of the university. At the time, when some students were kicked out from the university, it looked like they had no future. Maybe this person had no future at that time.

But my mom supported me, “You are my son, I support you. You did no wrong.” How many mothers encourage their sons? This is the question. My mother encouraged me. When I was kicked out from university, she could have said, “You are a student. You have to be silent. You have to study. Why did you make such trouble?”

She could have been angry with me, because at that time, there was no private company, and I would not be able to find a job. I would have had a really difficult situation at that time if my parents did not support me. But my family, particularly my mother, supported me.

After I left, they were suffering a lot and monitored 24 hours a day. They were isolated from their relatives in the Uyghur community as well. She never complained to me. The last phone communication with my mother was in the middle of April 2017. That was the last time I talked to her.

In 2003, the Chinese government was calling me a terrorist. Chinese CCTV broadcasted my pictures every day. The police came to my home, saying, “Your son is a terrorist. You have to denounce him. We will capture and arrest him, and bring him to justice in China.”

She said, “Okay, go ahead and do it.” That time I also called her and she spoke with me. But in April 2017, the last time, she told me, “Please don’t call me anymore.” I realized how serious it was, and then she disappeared. One year later, I learned from Radio Free Asia that my mother died in the concentration camp.

Mr. Jekielek:
They took a 78-year-old woman and put her in that concentration camp.

Mr. lsa:
Yes.

Mr. Jekielek:
This is a part of this reality that we don’t often talk about. The families of the activists are marked and have to deal with it. It’s not just that you are called a terrorist with a Interpol Red Notice and you have to deal with police at the borders. But in China, they broadcast and advertise that and use you as a tool to scare everybody else. Of course, they focus on your family. Please tell us more about that.

Mr. lsa:
In China they use family members as hostages. All Uyghurs are in the same situation as the Tibetans and Falun Gong. They use their family members as hostages and try to silence them. Not only silence them, but get them to cooperate with the Chinese government. Before 2016, Uyghur community members who already had U.S. citizenship or German citizenship, got their visa to travel to China to visit family members.

But after they landed and before visiting a family member, the police security service received them, brought them to the so-called hotel, offered them tea, and then threatened them. They said, “Welcome. If you want to visit and enjoy time with your family, here is the condition—you have to cooperate with us. If you don’t cooperate with us, you cannot stay, and we will deport you.”

Some of the people, after returning back, reported this to us. But most of them didn’t report this, so that’s why it’s very difficult to know who will continue to work with the Chinese government. Even before getting your visa from the Chinese Consulate, they’re asking questions, asking you to cooperate with them, and collecting whatever information the Uyghur community will provide to them. Those who don’t cooperate will not get a visa.

That is one tactic of China. Maybe sometimes you will get a visa, but I couldn’t get one. Then next month I will get a visa, but you cannot get one. Then the Uyghur community will say, “Look, he got the visa. He is an activist, but maybe he’s cooperating.” Then, they will lose trust in each other. Who can trust who? This is the issue. Maybe China is also doing this with some other groups, not just always among the Uyghurs.

Mr. Jekielek:
I’ve talked about this with a number of people involved in Chinese human rights issues from the Tibetan community, the Uyghur community, the Falun Gong community, and the Hong Kong dissident community. There is always an attempt to break the communities from the inside by co-opting people and using these pressure tactics. There was once an official line, “We’re going to change China by investing there.” But it happened the other way around, and we learned all the wrong lessons.

Mr. lsa:
Yes, this is a very important point. The U.S. government, the Western governments, and the European governments bear a huge responsibility for this. They were wrong to imagine that if the Chinese economy developed, we could export a democratic system to China. That was wrong. They don’t understand the CCP mentality. The reality is that we warned the world about this 20 years ago.

Even some in the Chinese democratic movement warned the government, “No, it is wrong. Letting China join the WTO [World Trade Organization] is the wrong decision.” Some Chinese democratic friends like Wei Jingsheng also opposed this at that time. They said, “No, it is wrong. China should not be a member of the World Trade Organization.” But our government did not agree. Now, China will even threaten the United States and European countries. The West exported money and technology, but China never accepted the Western democratic values.

Mr. Jekielek:
Exactly. They use these different techniques like legal warfare and security warfare, as we have been discussing. They weaponize the tools of the free and democratic societies against them. They go into the WTO and get access, but then they don’t follow the rules. Then what happens to them? Nothing, apparently, for 20 years.

Mr. lsa:
China is trying to change the international order. They want to change international law and the norms of the human rights system. They say, “We provide food to 1.4 billion people.” This is the model for human rights from this authoritarian regime.

Mr. Jekielek:
We were speaking with former UN Ambassador-at-Large, Kelley Currie, who said that the Chinese delegation was attempting to change what human rights were in the first place. It’s a constant attempt to subvert that system. We also talked about the deep financial relationships between China and many liberal democracies. In Europe, Germany would be a good example. How much did we start adopting the Chinese Communist Party values in doing our work?

Mr. lsa:
From the perspective of most countries, the Uyghur issue is a human rights issue and it is wrong. Human rights violations exist everywhere. Human rights problems exist in the United States, Europe, Germany, Africa, and around the world, only the levels are different.

That’s why this is an excuse for companies. Is the business somehow entitled to ignore this? Yes, it’s really a human rights issue. Human rights problems exist in every country, but business is regarded as separate. It is just an excuse for them to ignore human rights issues.

But today, the Chinese Communist Party is committing genocide against the Uyghurs. The UN report says that this is a crime against humanity. Crime against humanity is not a simple term, it is genocide. Within 18 months, the Uyghur Tribunal collected 100,000 pages of documents and testimony from more than 500 people. On December 9, 2021, the Uyghur Tribunal made a judgment saying that the Chinese government is committing torture and genocide against Uyghurs, and crimes against humanity.

So far 10 national parliaments adopted the Uyghur genocide motions. The U.S. government and U.S. Congress also declared the Uyghur genocide. The European parliament adopted possible genocide and crimes against humanity. This is not a simple human rights violation. It is a crime against humanity according to international law, so it should not be business as usual. This is not the time for business as usual.

Every country and every company should have a legal obligation to stop an ongoing genocide. It was 75 years ago, after the Holocaust genocide took place, when they said, “Never again.” Our world leaders promised, “Never again.” But never again is actually happening again today. More than 150 countries signed the international convention against genocide. All these countries have legal obligations to uphold this.

They think if you’re just talking about human rights issues, then it’s okay to continue doing business with China. But if the CCP is committing genocide and crimes against humanity, then no country should have the right to do business with China. They should stop doing business with China. In Germany, we are saying this all the time. Take Volkswagen as an example.

Mr. Jekielek:
Volkswagen was just involved in another big lawsuit here in America. It was actually a big business in Germany back in the 1930s and 40s.

Mr. lsa:
Yes, they were complicit with the Nazi regime and they cooperated with the Nazi regime. Today they are cooperating with the CCP regime. They say, “Oh, we’re sorry.” If you are sorry, then you should not be cooperating. You should not repeat the same mistakes. But unfortunately, these countries create excuses and continue to do business with China.

But the good thing is at least the U.S. Congress adopted the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act. Now, all products from East Turkestan, Xinjiang, are banned. That is good. But the United States cannot stop this alone. They should continue to push the European alliance to cooperate.

Mr. Jekielek:
People will say that genocide is a political designation, because it’s convenient for the U.S. Getting this genocide designation was unbelievably difficult. By law, this designation requires some action. This is the worst thing that human beings could do to each other, but we don’t want to support it. Back in 1945 we said, “Never again.” But in the last few years it has been business as usual. Have our values changed because of this engagement with China?

Mr. lsa:
Yes, and this is why we should warn lawmakers and governments. We must remind them and push them. We have received a lot of response from civil society. Now, 460 international human rights organizations and labor unions in civil society are coming together to establish the Uyghur Forced Labor Coalition. This is a good step. We are working together to push the government and the business entities.

For example, one of the German companies, BASF, a chemical company, announced last month that they were pulling out of Xinjiang because of the media coverage. We have to use the power of the media. It was the German media, ZDF, who published how BASF was cooperating with the CCP and the concentration camps. We had been talking with them for many years, but they still refused to pull out. But after that media coverage, they finally admitted their mistake, and they made an announcement.

Another robot manufacturing company also pulled out. That’s a good step. A Swedish company, H&M, also stopped buying cotton from Xinjiang, because globally 25 percent of cotton textiles come from Uyghur forced labor. In China, 85 percent of cotton is from Uyghur forced labor. Adrian Zenz, Laura Murphy, and a lot of respectable scholars used Chinese data and created a report on this.

We are also asking other companies and some have pulled out and stopped doing business with China. This is a good step, but it’s not good enough. At least 700 international brands have a direct link with Uyghur forced labor. Very few of them have stopped doing business with China, so that’s why we continue. But these are good examples. We have seen some power of the coalition and the cooperation.

Mr. Jekielek:
This showcases how big this issue is. On the other hand, it also showcases that something can be done and that significant things have changed. You have to persevere and keep going. At your book launch you were talking about fighting transnational oppression.

Mr. lsa:
Yes, our work is not easy, because we are fighting a very powerful enemy. We need to be brave and we believe justice will prevail in the end. China has money and uses diplomatic and economic power to manipulate the UN. They misuse the international system. They cooperate with other authoritarian countries that are opposed to Western democracy. It’s not easy.

Sometimes countries will even say, “Sorry, we cannot speak against China.” But we have spoken against China. The Uyghurs, Tibetans, Falun Gong, and Hong Kongers have all spoken against China. They are a giant enemy and it is not easy. Many countries and many people are scared of them. That’s why we must be very brave. We have to push the governments. It is necessary.

If you give up, that is the wish of the CCP. That is their wish. If you give up and lose hope, then that is a victory for China. They will think they have won. That’s why we should believe in our cause. In 2006, I came to the United States with a German passport. I was stopped at Washington International Dulles airport, and 23 hours later, they sent me back to Germany with a T-shirt. I was so sad.

I was so disappointed, because me and millions of Uyghurs and the entire world trusted U.S. democracy and the rule of law. But at that time, the U.S. government trusted the CCP instead and labeled me as a terrorist. They didn’t trust me and sent me back to Germany. I was so disappointed, but I never gave up.

Finally, seven years later in 2013, after I was deported back to Germany, I got a 10-year visa. If I had gotten angry, disappointed, and gave up, I would not be sitting here today. The Interpol Red Notice is from such a big institution. I’m just one man. How can I fight such a big institution? China pays millions of dollars to this institution. If I had said something like that, maybe my Red Notice would still be over my head.

But I’m fighting, and maybe I can succeed. At that time, I couldn’t imagine that I could succeed. But I had to keep on and never give up. Then finally, my Red Notice was deleted. I suffered for 21 years, but they finally deleted it. But some Uyghurs still have Red Notices. They didn’t fight like me, so they still have Interpol Red Notices. I know that they are not criminals. No, they are just like me.

Their crime is being Uyghur. They join the pro-democracy movement and they criticize China. Their name still is on the Interpol list. But I’m out here fighting, searching for opportunities, and asking for international support. Then finally, I could find good allies. At the beginning, I’m alone, but later, quite a lot of people and organizations help me. Then we succeed.

In 2006, I was deported as a criminal. But seven years later, in 2013, I’m back in the United States. I got a human rights award as a Freedom Fighter. In 2019, I got the Democracy Award from Nancy Pelosi on Capitol Hill. This is the situation and this is the example. That’s why I told people in my book, “First, don’t trust the CCP. Second, don’t give up.” This is my message.

Mr. Jekielek:
Dolkun Isa, it’s such a pleasure to have you on the show.

Mr. lsa:
Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

Mr. Jekielek:
Thank you all for joining Dolkun Isa and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders. I’m your host, Jan Jekielek.

This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.