How I Became a Soviet Spy and Escaped My KGB Handlers: Jack Barsky

[FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW] Jack Barsky is a former KGB sleeper agent. Born in East Germany in 1949, he was recruited by the KGB while in college and sent to the United States. He spied for the Soviets for ten years before eventually escaping his handlers, as the Soviet Union was collapsing.

“I was going to serve the righteous cause. I was going to help free all the oppressed masses in the world and help accelerate the establishment of the worker’s paradise on earth. It’s a very romantic belief that has taken hold again among some young people: All people are good and if they steal or do bad things, it’s because of the circumstances. So, we just need to take the shackles off of the working class—the oppressed. And I believed in this, 100 percent,” says Mr. Barsky.

Today, he is a proud American and the author of the 2017 memoir, “Deep Undercover: My Secret Life and Tangled Allegiances as a KGB Spy in America.”

“A lot of my friends … they were not able to shed the remnants of that brainwashing. And I heard this a lot: You know we had a good cause. The reason that it failed was we had the wrong people at the top,” says Mr. Barsky.

Views expressed in this video are opinions of the host and the guest, and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Epoch Times.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Jan Jekielek:
Jack Barsky, it’s such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.

Jack Barsky:
It’s a delight. It’s sort of last minute, but we fit it right into my travel schedule. You know, I believe in a higher power. I think he arranged for that.

Mr. Jekielek:
You didn’t start out your life as Jack Barsky.

Mr. Barsky:
Of course not. No, I was Albrecht Dietrich, and I celebrated my 75th birthday yesterday. Actually, my Jack Barsky birthday will be in November. My daughter can write a book, “My Daddy Has Two Birthdays.”

Mr. Jekielek:
You were actually a KGB agent embedded in America for quite a number of years.

Mr. Barsky:
Yes, I was operational in the U.S. for 10 years, from 1978 to 1988.

Mr. Jekielek:
Please give us an overview of your story for the benefit of our audience. You’ve written an excellent book about it, ”Deep Undercover.”

Mr. Barsky:
I was born in 1949 and raised in the eastern part of Germany. World War II ended in 1945, so I was born four years after that. I was born into one of the poorest regions of Germany, where the Czech Republic, Poland, and Germany come together. In one place where I lived, I could walk to the Neisse River, which separates Germany from Poland, in just seven minutes. We used to swim in that river. The area had poor soil and a lot of pine forests.
There was no higher learning institution or significant industry. If you were born there, there was a good chance you couldn’t get out. In those days, mobility for East Germans, especially in that region, was very low. That part of Germany was occupied by the Soviet Army. On my birthday, it became the German Democratic Republic [GDR]. I was born in May 1949, and the GDR came into existence that October.
With the German Democratic Republic, only one word of the three is actually true. It is German, but it was neither democratic nor a republic. It became a dictatorship run by the communist party. There were a few political parties that had communists embedded in them, but it was just for show. The elections were always rigged, with only one slate of candidates. You could either put a checkmark there or cross something out, but if you crossed something out, the Stasi was watching. They were the East German secret police, equivalent to the KGB.
The country was 100 percent ruled by the communists. There was even a party that represented the remnants of the German church, but it was highly supervised and infiltrated by the communists. If you grow up in such a country, from early childhood you are fed lie after lie after lie. The brainwashing is powerful, starting from kindergarten and continuing through elementary school, where we were encouraged to join the Young Pioneers, which most everybody did.

Mr. Jekielek:
The Young Pioneers were a communist youth group.

Mr. Barsky:
Yes, they were a children’s group. When I entered high school, there was the next level, the Free German Youth. However, we weren’t really free. Then some of us joined the communist party. When you turned 18, you could join the Socialist Unity Party, but I joined a year later. I just wanted to be a contrarian. I was always a contrarian and I didn’t follow the crowd.
But that got me into trouble, so I had to learn to play by the rules. There were also sports and paramilitary groups outside of the Free German Youth. Each of those groups had a specific form of brainwashing. Then once you got a job, you were expected to join the party.

The communist message was everywhere, and there was no room for argument. In college, we even took a course called Scientific Marxism-Leninism. I was studying chemistry with aspirations to become a scientist. The big lie was that Marx had discovered the law that determines the evolution of human society, from hunter/gatherers, to slavery, to the middle ages’ aristocracy, to capitalism, and ultimately, socialism and communism.
The majority of us believed in this law. When I returned to Germany many years later, I found that many of my friends of the same age still held on to remnants of their brainwashing. I heard this sentiment often. They said, “We had a good cause. The reason it failed was that we had the wrong people in charge.”

Mr. Jekielek:
One of your good friends ended up becoming a high-level Stasi official, while you were pursuing a career in chemistry, aiming to become a scientist.

Mr. Barsky:
It was quite challenging to break free from the area where I grew up. In fact, upon my return to Germany, I ran into a former classmate from elementary school. He stayed there and became the mayor. Though he became a mayor, being confined to one place causes narrow-mindedness. You learn to understand more as you see more of the world.
Thankfully, I was able to leave because of my good grades and entrance to high school. At that time, only the top 10 percent of middle school students were admitted, making it somewhat of an elite school. My mother helped greatly by enrolling me in a school with a boarding facility, instead of one that required commuting by bus on a daily basis.

Mr. Jekielek:
A boarding school.

Mr. Barsky:
Yes, a boarding school. With that support, everything came easily for me. I excelled in the entire program and graduated at the top of my class with all A’s. Then, I went on to college. In my junior year, I was awarded the Karl Marx scholarship.
After doing some research, I found out that the program I was a part of had only 50,000 students in all of Germany and I was considered one of the best. Although I can’t be certain, I strongly believe that the KGB had access to our records. The Stasi. On the other hand, kept records on every adult, without exception. They were searching for individuals to recruit, similar to how the CIA used to exclusively recruit from Ivy League schools.
When the KGB was looking for candidates for their most challenging job, an illegal lone wolf, they had specific character traits in mind. I know this because I came across a few interviews given by former heads of the directorate after the KGB was dismantled. They mentioned these character traits they sought, and I can confidently say that I fit this profile perfectly.

Now, one of the primary traits they looked for was quickness of intellect. They wanted smart individuals with extensive knowledge, language abilities, bravery, focus, and the ability to quickly respond to unpredictable situations. All of these qualities describe me. However, there was one trait that I didn’t possess at that time—knowledge of multiple professions.

Another trait they valued was a well-controlled inclination for adventure, and this one is my personal favorite. Even as a child, I would climb trees that I wasn’t supposed to and ended up injuring myself at times. I always had an appetite for doing peculiar things that others wouldn’t dare attempt.

Additionally, the KGB looked for individuals who could handle stress, adapt to new life conditions, control their emotions, and hold an unwavering belief in the communist cause. These are the factors that caught the attention of the KGB recruiters.

One Saturday, while I was studying in my dorm room, there was a knock on the door. I invited the stranger in, and he introduced himself with a strange cover story. You can read more about it in the book. We engaged in small talk, but then he changed the topic and said something along the lines of, “Imagine one day working for the government.”
I gave him the response he was expecting to hear, a resounding “yes.” But clarified that I didn’t want to work as a chemist. I had a hunch that he was affiliated with the Stasi, the East German secret police. Later, I discovered that he was a collaborator with the KGB. He invited me out for a meal the following week.
It marked the beginning of a lengthy process before I was officially recruited. They observed me for 18 months to determine if I had what it takes. At that point, I wasn’t fully aware of the seriousness of it all. I was merely curious to see what would unfold.
We had our own version of James Bond in East Germany, an undercover agent operating in the West, tasked with hunting down Nazis. But he also lived a luxurious life, with fancy cars, a beautiful house, and multiple girlfriends. This lifestyle was incredibly appealing, and we all believed it to be a reality, just like how people believe James Bond might actually exist.

Mr. Jekielek:
You were recruited into the KGB?

Mr. Barsky:
Yes, I was. First, I underwent two-and-a-half years of training in Berlin, which was supposedly enough to prepare me for my mission in West Germany. It was a logical choice, as the language and culture were the same. Interestingly, I believe that neither the KGB nor the Stasi trusted each other. The Stasi had a significant presence in West Germany, with some members holding high positions in the government. It didn’t make sense for the KGB to send someone like me, but they didn’t trust the Stasi.
Therefore, they instructed every agent, whether operating under diplomatic cover or illegally like myself, to learn an additional language. I chose English. After about eight or nine months of learning, I impressed a visitor from Moscow by reading a novel without needing a dictionary. This led to my interview in Moscow with two women, one of whom was American-born.
They wanted to determine if I could learn English well enough to pass as a native speaker. The American woman was optimistic, believing that someone like her could teach me. She suggested that Russians typically struggle with eliminating their accents. This is why they began recruiting people from the Baltic states and Germany.
Usually, the KGB smuggled illegals into the U.S. through third countries, mainly Brazil, but Canada was also another option. However, I was considered one of their most valuable illegals, potentially the crown jewel. I’m not sure how many others had the same abilities. But what I do know is that they only trained ten of us from the late 70s to the mid-80s. This information comes directly from the KGB archives, so it’s authentic.
That’s how I ended up in Moscow, working with the American woman I mentioned. I also received training from two renowned KGB agents, Morris and Lona Cohen, who were part of the notorious Rosenberg spy ring. He recruited people, and she worked as a courier. They managed to escape when the Rosenbergs were captured, and then they were redeployed to Great Britain. Eventually, they were captured again and spent around eight years in jail until they were exchanged for someone else. I forgot who it was, but after that, they lived out their lives in Moscow.

Finally, after a practice trip to Canada, I was ready. My destination was New York. Even if there was a little accident, nobody in New York would care. I showed up in 1978, and within two days of entering the U.S. at O’Hare airport in Chicago, I became Jack Barsky. I had the certified birth certificate of Jack Barsky, who had died at 11-years-old, and there was likely no record of his existence anywhere.

That’s how I ended up here. At this point, I want to comment on one of the characteristics you mentioned in your list; deep loyalty to the cause and serving the righteous cause. I wanted to help free all the oppressed masses in the world and accelerate the establishment of the workers’ paradise on earth. It’s a romantic belief that has taken hold again among some young people today.

I truly believe that all people are good, and if they steal or do bad things, it’s because of the circumstances they face. We just needed to remove the shackles from the working class and the oppressed. I wholeheartedly believed this. I must admit I wasn’t one of those super-communists who unquestioningly followed whatever the boss said.
I always had a critical mind, but mostly kept my criticisms to myself. However, I still believed in the cause. By the way, I thought the party and country leaders were pretty unintelligent. I didn’t know Russian and had limited interaction with Russians when I was there. I was there in secret, after all.

I wasn’t aware of the problems Soviet society faced. I did notice that the supermarkets had very few goods. If you saw a line, you joined it without question, just happy to get whatever they had. But overall, Moscow looked quite impressive and the facades were beautiful. Of course, if you walked around to the back of the buildings, you would see the reality. The apartment buildings were dirty and the elevators didn’t work. But I chose to ignore all of that.

Mr. Jekielek:
Recently, there has been a lot of talk about how amazing the Moscow subway is. It’s incredibly ornate and resembles a palace in many ways.

Mr. Barsky:
It was always on time and reliable. In stark contrast to New York, its cars were bigger and wider. One of its initial purposes was to function as a bomb shelter. When a dictator desired something, they could mobilize all available resources and construct something incredibly stunning. Each station resembled a room in a castle, except for the newest stations.

Mr. Jekielek:
Why did they focus on a subway?

Mr. Barsky:
It was a matter of pride for the locals. By the way, St. Petersburg also boasts a fairly remarkable subway system. Moscow had its historic buildings, Red Square, the Kremlin—everything was phenomenal. Because they were communists and Russians, the Soviets felt the need to create something impressive, and they wanted their people to take pride in their Russian and Soviet citizenship. They also wanted to prove their worth to the world. Throughout history, dictators have always built monuments for themselves, and this subway system was the legacy Stalin built for himself.

Mr. Jekielek:
You were active in the U.S. for 10 years. During that time, you made several trips back to Moscow, but never on a direct flight. It must have required a significant investment to make all this happen. What was the purpose of these trips? Looking back, it seems like you didn’t accomplish much, other than becoming deeply embedded in American society and remaining anonymous.

Mr. Barsky:
That’s correct. The KGB excelled at keeping secrets, much better than American intelligence, which always leaked information. The KGB’s roots were in the secretive underground, where small groups of three or four individuals operated. Only one person from each group connected with another group. They were highly skilled at compartmentalizing information.
When I joined, I became a state secret. However, the flip side was that they also kept many things secret from me, so that in case I defected, I wouldn’t possess any critical knowledge. I wasn’t even aware of the name of my boss. They only shared with me what they deemed necessary for me to perform my duties.
This created challenges, as I had to make important decisions on my own without access to pertinent information. Consequently, I made some poor choices. One crucial aspect they never disclosed to me was the true value of my presence in the U.S. In actuality, the value lay in my mere presence here.

In the late 1980s, an open intelligence competition ensued between the CIA and the KGB. Most agents from both countries were operating under diplomatic cover, thereby raising suspicions of espionage. If any agent was exposed, they would be expelled, leading to the other side retaliating by expelling one of their own American agents. It was a continual back and forth.
If there were three or four moles uncovered, the other side also expelled three or four. Andropov, the head of the KGB at the time, was very concerned about the potential breakdown of diplomatic relations. Why? You can connect the dots. Back then, the most valuable agents for the KGB in the United States were moles like Aldrich Ames in the CIA and Robert Hanssen in the FBI.
These individuals possessed a treasure trove of secrets and caused significant damage to the United States. They also interacted with diplomatic agents. God forbid if all the diplomats were gone. It would only be us left, the illegals. Did they tell me this? Did they provide any instructions? Nothing.
I found out much later, when I was already working for the FBI and against Russia, that my handler had knowledge of other illegals and informed me that I was the only one with specific tasks. My friend, the German, was only tasked with living like an American and working at Columbia University. I, on the other hand, had multiple tasks, with a focus on foreign policy. They told me to get close to decision-makers in foreign policy or individuals who had influence in that area, such as in think tanks.
However, I completely failed in that regard because I wasn’t in a position to befriend people like that in society. Initially, my first job was as a bike messenger, and then I became a college student. I simply didn’t have a good reason to interact with those types of people. If I had, I might have had some success, but they never informed me about that. They never even gave me a good job.
My role was to spot potential candidates for recruitment, primarily focusing on college students who might end up in government positions, as well as individuals with weaknesses or followers of radical ideologies. Communism wasn’t really popular at the time, but it could have been something like anti-Semitism. We recruited under false pretenses. Do you know what that means?
Mr. Jekielek:
I do, but please explain it for our audience.
Mr. Barsky:
It is when you work as a recruiter but under a false flag. For example, the Russians used the pro-Israel false flag, pretending to work for Israel. That tactic was quite successful, along with posing as an advocate for world peace or being involved in the active anti-nuclear movement of the time. If someone wanted to support the cause, they would provide information. That’s what the false flag means.
Mr. Jekielek:
But it’s really a KGB handler, correct?
Mr. Barsky:
Yes, it’s KGB, and the person playing that role has to be a pretty good actor. The only reason they thought I was doing a good job is because in 1986, two years before I severed ties with the KGB, I was awarded the Order of the Red Banner. It was a highly prestigious decoration that required approval from the highest levels of the Soviet government, not just the KGB. If you look it up, you’ll see just how significant it was.

Mr. Jekielek:
The bottom line is, there may have been things for which you were responsible for that you are not even aware of. This award suggests that there were likely many such things.

Mr. Barsky:
I wouldn’t want to speculate, as I do know about a few other tasks they asked me to do. For example, I was involved in locating and gathering information about a couple of defectors who had made it to the U.S. It was likely that this was in preparation for a possible assassination attempt. There were explicit tasks, and one of them was to periodically visit a military object assigned to every KGB agent operating in another country. My designated object was the Naval Weapons Station Earle in New Jersey.

They trained me to identify the types of ships based on their silhouette, and if there were signs of preparation for war. However, it was inconvenient for me to travel to New Jersey without a car. I had to take the Staten Island ferry and then ride my bicycle.

Mr. Jekielek:
Let’s discuss how you left the KGB. I got the impression that such departures are rare.

Mr. Barsky:
Yes, what I did was not the norm. Most individuals who sever ties with the KGB defect. I, on the other hand, resigned.

Mr. Jekielek:
But you resigned by faking a terminal illness.

Mr. Barsky:
Yes, I used deceit as a means to resign.

Mr. Jekielek:
Why?

Mr. Barsky:
There is a four-letter word that has been the most important word in my life and likely for all of humanity. It’s L-O-V-E, love. True love is unconditional, without expecting anything in return. I was in love with an 18-month-old baby girl. The plan was for me to stay in the U.S. for 10 to12 years, because “illegals” like me have a limited shelf life.

If you excel in your mission, you may no longer need to leave the country. You become a part of the country, instead of it being merely your duty. I worried about what would happen when I eventually left and how I could support my daughter. Her mother had only completed four years of schooling. It would’ve likely meant that my daughter Chelsea would grow up in poverty in a dangerous neighborhood, and that thought broke my heart.

In December 1988, the KGB received information suggesting that the FBI was planning to arrest me, so they initiated their emergency procedure. The emergency signal was at the highest level, with everything else appearing insignificant. One day, I went to work and noticed this particular signal on a subway support beam of the elevated L train. There it was, this red fist-sized red dot that meant, “Danger, get out of here.”
I was supposed to make a beeline to the Canadian border and then go check in at the Soviet embassy. Then they would get me out of the country. I didn’t know what to do. I went back and forth about what to do. I could stall for a while simply because they didn’t know anything about me.
I could have had an accident and been in a hospital. I could stall for a while simply because they didn’t know anything about me. I wasn’t operational for about a month, so I could stall for a while because I hadn’t made a decision.
On the one hand, I wanted to eventually go back to Germany and live as a German with my German family, so what to do? How do I get money to this child? I saw no way of doing this. In a radio transmission using shortwave, they gave me a little more information than just the signal of danger and said, “We have reason to believe that the FBI is about to arrest you. Start the emergency procedure, and that’s an order.”

I could still stall for a little bit because the radio transmission could have been bad. They said, “Confirm that you received this radiogram with a return signal.” But you know, sometimes the transmission was poor quality, or the radio was broken, or maybe I was ill. That’s when they forced the issue.
They sent somebody to look for me. One morning in December, when it was dark and there were not too many people around, I was waiting for the subway. A short guy in a black trench coat came to me and whispered into my ear in a heavy Russian accent, “You’ve got to come home, or else you’re dead. “ Now, there was no more stalling because they knew that I knew that they knew.
The next radiogram called for a dead drop operation. Most of what I handed back to Moscow was information you can send through the radio, or you can send in a letter. But if you want to hand over material like passports or money, there’s something called a brush pass. You pass each other in a spot where whoever is following you can’t see, and then you exchange something. I was never trained to do that and it was too dangerous. Meeting in person was also too dangerous.
What was left was a dead drop operation. You take the money or the passport and put it in a container that looks natural. What I used for a container was a rock made out of plaster of Paris. No animal or park ranger would pick that up and throw it in the garbage.
But those idiots used crushed oil cans and they clearly didn’t think it through. I was supposed to look for an oil can in a park on Staten Island. I had found this spot in the dark with a flashlight in hand. I walked confidently, although still unsure of my decision. At the very least, I was going to collect the money. I reached the spot, but there was no oil can.

Then 15 minutes later, I walked out of the park. The moment I left, a feeling of dread hit me. It was as if something was telling me to stay. As a Christian, I believed it was the Holy Spirit speaking to me. But, whether you believe in that or not, it was clear that staying was not the result of a logical analysis of what was best for me.
I could have rationalized leaving, saying that if I stayed and the FBI arrested me, I wouldn’t be any good for the child either. Most people would have chosen that path and left, but I stayed. Then, I made sure they didn’t see it as a defection.

In my last letter to Moscow, written in secret code, I apologized and explained my decision. I told them that I would love to come to Moscow, but the danger here was even greater due to my HIV/AIDS condition. This was the only place where I could potentially receive treatment. I knew they were deathly afraid of this infectious disease. Back then, there was no cure, and it was considered a death sentence. They bought into my lie.

Mr. Jekielek:
You were also aware that they were particularly frightened of bringing it to Russia.

Mr. Barsky:
Yes, absolutely.

Mr. Jekielek:
You used that fear to your advantage.

Mr. Barsky:
That’s right. They saw AIDS as a consequence of the capitalist lifestyle, free love, and homosexuality. The Soviets believed that we were getting what we deserved. They had to be extremely cautious and screen everyone to ensure they didn’t let them into Russia. I imagine that if they knew someone was a homosexual male, they wouldn’t allow them to enter. They were deeply concerned about the possibility of the AIDS disease spreading in the communist, Warsaw Pact countries.

Mr. Jekielek:
It must have been hard to envision an exit strategy, especially considering the reputation of the KGB.

Mr. Barsky:
Exactly. First and foremost, I made it clear that I would not defect. I remained a patriotic East German. They knew about me, but they were unaware of this child or the woman in my life in the United States. I kept that information hidden from them. They didn’t discover it during my visit in 1986 when I was already married. If they had known, they would have kept me there, and I wouldn’t have had a successful career for the rest of my life.
All they knew was that I had a family in Germany whom I loved, and they had given me the Order of the Red Banner, so I would return home as a conquering hero. It would not make sense for me to lie about AIDS, so they informed my German family that I had died from AIDS. In fact, the official records in Germany, which keep track of deaths and births, state that Albrecht Deitrich, my German name, passed away in 1988.

Mr. Jekielek:
What is it like living a double life where you have two families, neither of whom truly understand who you are or what you are doing?

Mr. Barsky:
My German wife knew that I worked for the KGB and that I was operating in the United States. However, she did not know any specifics, not even the city. My American family knew nothing until many years later, after I started working with the FBI.
What was it like? To me, it felt normal. It was my job, and I had to do it. Now, marrying someone in the U.S. and even helping them obtain a green card was beyond my responsibilities. I did not disclose that it was not a genuine act of love, but rather a matter of pity and a safe companionship.
She could not have suspected that I was not born in the United States. An American-born woman would likely have noticed something. As a young man, I had certain needs. That was one aspect.
The other aspect was that I empathized with her situation. She shared with me how she had already married someone once and paid him money, but he did not follow through with filing for her green card. However, compartmentalizing everything felt normal to me. When in the U.S., I had to be an American, and when I returned to Germany, I switched back to my German self.
As a result, even my dreams were in English. However, the only remnant is that I still count silently in German. That is the last trace. Only when I was able to reveal the truth to the FBI and then come out publicly did some healing take place.

Mr. Jekielek:
After being a devoted communist, you underwent a transformation and became a Christian. This transformation is also discussed in your book, which I highly recommend as it is a captivating read. You wrote, “No matter what challenges we face in our nation, as long as the beacon of freedom still shines, that is where my home will be. America has always stood for the freedom to pursue our dreams and our faith, the freedom to come and go, the freedom to think, and the freedom to express our thoughts without fear. And most importantly, the freedom to fail. I pray that this mindset will continue to prevail in the one great bastion of freedom on earth, the United States of America.” Clearly, numerous transformations have occurred here.

Mr. Barsky:
Legally, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually, I am 100 percent American these days. I have no desire to return to Germany. I have succeeded in fully embracing the American system. There is something in my genetic makeup that helped me adopt the American way of life.
First and foremost, I have always been a contrarian.That’s how God made me. The ability to think freely, make up my own mind, and learn from my own mistakes was incredibly important to me. Additionally, I had stopped believing that man is fundamentally good, due to the periods in the Catholic Church’s history when it was very evil. From murderous popes to secretly married popes, the examples were numerous.
When I took an online course on the American Constitution, I realized that avoiding concentration of power in one organization or group was the only way to prevent such corruption. Throughout history, there have been countless instances where seemingly sincere leaders like Castro or Lenin turned into dictators due to the inherent evil in mankind. Taking power by force and staying in power inevitably leads to such abuses. The separation of powers, as established by the founders, is the only way to manage and mitigate this evil.

Mr. Jekielek:
You initially had a romanticized view of communist ideology, which kept you going.

Mr. Barsky:
Yes, at first, I rationalized it and shaped it into the reality that I wanted. We knew that the standard of living in the West was higher than in East Germany and Russia. However, we believed that these countries had obtained their wealth by exploiting the third world, such as getting cheap bananas from Guatemala. It was painful to let go of this fundamental belief ingrained in us.

Mr. Jekielek:
You mention that there are young people today who have a romanticized and ideologically righteous view, often referred to as American Marxism or wokeness.

Mr. Barsky:
I hesitate to call it Marxism because it is much broader. In a true Marxist society, there is no private property. Those who hold onto this romantic notion of liberating the world from oppressors are not willing to give up their own private property. I haven’t heard anyone advocate for that.
In fact, the radical Left in this country often lives comfortably. While there may be some utilitarian aspects borrowed from Marxism, the ones driving the undermining of American society are the ones who want to be in charge and enjoy the benefits of power.

Mr. Jekielek:
Let’s return to your quote, “No matter what challenges we face in our nation, as long as the beacon of freedom still shines.” A lot of people in America are expressing that they no longer see the beacon of freedom. How would you respond to that?

Mr. Barsky:
While it’s not entirely true, there is some truth to it. Peaceful protests in front of abortion clinics, for example, are a form of freedom of speech that is not allowed.

On the other hand, there are instances where criminal behavior by protesters is permitted, which restricts the freedom of others, such as the students who want to study. The direction we are heading in is very dangerous. We haven’t reached the point of no return yet, but it is a troubling development.
This issue is closely tied to the American educational system’s focus on feelings. Diversity is important and should be respected. But it has created an irrational group that fails to understand the logic of being a human being and truly loving others. Life is not about changing or molding others into your own image.
Unfortunately, these values are fading, and hatred is prevailing over love. This is self-destructive and will eventually lead to the destruction of society if we don’t find a way out. It doesn’t necessarily have to be religious, but there have been moments in history where revivals occurred and people realized that something was not right. Such a realization is still possible. I am fundamentally optimistic, but I am also concerned about the direction we are heading in.

Mr. Jekielek:
You used the term “mantle of ideological righteousness,” which refers to being convinced of one’s own goodness. Many people don’t see this as a real problem.

Mr. Barsky:
Vladimir Putin believes that he is a good man. There is an excellent documentary on YouTube about his life. He was a nobody who stumbled into positions of power. Over time, as he gained influence, he started believing in himself. Now, he is a full-blown narcissist. Narcissism is a dangerous mental illness where you strongly believe in your own goodness and become your own god.
As human beings, we are designed to be social animals, to be with others. During the Covid pandemic, people were unable to gather, resulting in a rise in mental illness and suicide rates. We need that social connection to be whole. When that glue is missing, society fractures into factions that fight against one another. It brings to mind a world after a disaster, like Mad Max.

Mr. Jekielek:
You attended a conference with Casey Fleming where he spoke about being in a different kind of Cold War today. He mentioned unconventional and unrestricted warfare, economic warfare, and drug warfare. You stood up and expressed gratitude for his courage to discuss this. Can you explain what you are witnessing today?
Mr. Barsky:
Let’s go back to my past. The KGB was already attempting to divide enemy society. By spreading lies and sowing discord, they sought to disintegrate their targets. These actions are what we call “active measures.” The KGB’s effectiveness was limited, because they lacked a deep understanding of the workings of a society. However, nowadays, Russian and Chinese intelligence possess this understanding, and they know how to exploit and undermine our country.

When it comes to psychological warfare, we are particularly vulnerable due to our lack of critical thinking skills. It becomes challenging to discern what is true or false, especially when false information appears widely known and accepted. The media exacerbates this problem, as even well-meaning journalists in mainstream outlets often fall prey to these falsehoods.

This is just one aspect of what Mr. Fleming discussed. The principle of asymmetric warfare means using any means necessary to weaken the enemy, and both China and Russia are highly systematic and sophisticated in their approach. The Russian interference in our election is a prime example. Their aim was not necessarily to favor one candidate over another, but rather to undermine Americans’ trust in our electoral system. They achieved this through the use of artificial personas on the internet that fanned the flames of extremism.

Asymmetric warfare encompasses various tactics, including the introduction of drugs into target countries. The goal is to weaken the enemy by any means, whether knowingly or unknowingly. I cannot speculate on the intentions of those involved.

Our vulnerabilities are further compounded by our open borders. The administration acknowledges that there are countless individuals crossing into the country without being identified. The United States has harbored a sense of invulnerability due to the absence of a direct invasion on our mainland. Consequently, we remain trusting and struggle to comprehend the need for a more heightened state of alertness, similar to that of the Israelis, who live under constant threat.

I would like to make one final statement. Unfortunately, we are doing an effective job of weakening American society on our own. We actually do not need additional assistance from Russia and China, but their actions are only hastening our decline. They know our weaknesses and exploit them accordingly.
As a result, I have concerns about the future of this country. It will not be a dictatorship like a communist regime. It will be more like an oligarchy, where a privileged class of wealthy individuals dominates, similar to the situation in Russia today. However, such a scenario is unlikely to occur due to the inherent nature of human beings.

Mr. Jekielek:
You are seeing a dark view of America, from both internal and external pressures.

Mr. Barsky:
Despite the concerns, I am not entirely negative because there are courageous people who stand up for truth. There are educational institutions that still prioritize teaching truth, science, and critical thinking. As a former spy, I engaged in extremely dangerous and risky actions, which requires optimism.
However, I am deeply concerned. I hesitate to elaborate further, but there is still hope that rational thinking will prevail. The challenge lies in reaching the majority of individuals, particularly the average voter who, although well-intentioned, may lack the intellectual tools to comprehend the ongoing complexities and potential consequences. Unfortunately, we no longer prioritize the teaching of history in our schools and colleges.

Mr. Jekielek:
What historical knowledge should people prioritize and absorb today?

Mr. Barsky:
You need to go back to Greece and Rome and go right through the history of modern man, and understand that certain societal constructs will eventually turn evil. It’s almost like a law of physics, and it’s just amazing. The raw evil that man has done to other men needs to be brought to the attention of people in the United States who are still very comfortable.
They are a little uncomfortable with the crime wave, but in general, they still have it pretty good. It is not guaranteed to stay that way. It can’t be just some well-meaning intellectual elite that understands this. It needs to seep into the masses, and that requires charismatic leaders. Right now, I don’t see any.
Mr. Jekielek:
Jack Barsky, such a pleasure to have you on the show.

Mr. Barsky:
Thank you. You’re welcome.

This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.