The Monument That Almost Wasn’t: The Remarkable Story Behind Canada’s Anti-Communist Memorial | Ludwik Klimkowski

[RUSH TRANSCRIPT BELOW] A few months ago, Canada unveiled its national memorial to the millions of victims of communism.

In this episode, Ludwik Klimkowski, chair of the Tribute of Liberty, gives us a tour of the memorial and reveals the 17-year battle to realize it as the group navigated changing political winds.

“This is a memorial to those who still struggle. This is the memorial given to those who still want to escape. This is the memorial to those who are still sitting in prison, whose organs are being harvested,” Klimkowski says.

The memorial was inaugurated last year, although the final elements on the Wall of Remembrance are still under development.

Views expressed in this video are opinions of the host and the guest, and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Epoch Times.

RUSH TRANSCRIPT

Jan Jekielek:

Ludwik Klimkowski, such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.

Ludwik Klimkowski:

Thank you, Jan. It’s a great pleasure for me as well.

Mr. Jekielek:

The ideology of communism is responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths worldwide. There are plentiful immigrants in Canada and the United States from these countries where all this has happened. But the memorials to the victims of this ideology are almost nowhere to be seen. Why is that?

Mr. Klimkowski:

For a variety of reasons. Number one, we need to acknowledge that communism has not ended. The perpetrators are still doing the evil deeds even today as we speak. And unlike, for example, the case of the Holocaust, which lasted only for a certain number of years and was concluded victoriously, you can come back to the places of crime and put up monuments to commemorate and to say, never again. The story of communism is a bit more complicated. It continues, clearly, in countries like North Korea, Vietnam, and China, you wouldn’t think that they would allow any of those monuments to exist. 

And yet, in North America, we have somehow adjusted to the new way of life. Many immigrants, just like myself, have the tendency to leave certain things behind. It’s almost like the greatest generation in America, the soldiers who came back after the Second World War. You had such fantastic documentaries about it, where they just didn’t want to talk about what happened to them during the combat years. I think we are dealing with the same dilemma both in the United States and in Canada. 

We don’t recognize the evils of communism unless they are being eloquently called out, just like President Ronald Reagan used to do. I think that generation has passed too. And we also have rather unhealthy tendencies to concentrate on folk heroes and glorify them without even knowing who they are. The best example is the cult of Che Guevara. Would people know that he has been perpetrating murder against the Bolivian peasants, and he is personally responsible for the slaughter of thousands of innocents? We don’t. 

And because we don’t, it is a bit more challenging to put up the monuments and say, look at this, remember this. And unlike the United States and Canada, our society, the breakdown of society is such that until just very recently, with the massive immigration that we experienced over the last couple of years, we claimed that a full quarter, 25% of Canadian society, is composed of people who either survived or escaped communist oppression. There’s no country like Canada anywhere on this planet where 25% of people who live in that country would escape communism to find safety and refuge in the wonderful mosaic of countries like Canada and the United States. 

Mr. Jekielek:

It’s particularly poignant that here in Ottawa there is now, after a great many years, a memorial to the victims of communism, also known as Tribute to Liberty. And I know because I’ve been following it very closely all these years, for full disclosure, I’m a tiny donor to it and a good friend of it, of course. But at some points, we weren’t even sure if it would happen. And that itself is astonishing. So tell me the story of this memorial, the saga. 

Mr. Klimkowski:

Yes, it is quite unusual and unlikely for a memorial devoted to the memory of victims of communism to be built in Canada, of all places. So the idea began because we were in almost lockstep with the wonderful, well-meaning memorial to the victims of the Holocaust. My personal hero, St. John Paul II, basically suggested that the 20th century was the century of tears. And they were tears because of the Holocaust and communism. 

Because Ottawa erected the memorial to the victims of the Holocaust, it was just logical that we should have a balance, not that we would compete with each other, but the balance of memory given to so many refugees and so many immigrants that found refuge in Canada. And John Paul always talked about not being afraid, you know, really putting up your own life and your own being, if you will, in devotion to something that is bigger than you. 

So the origins of this are quite long. This is 2008. So then the group of volunteers, which established the Tribute to Liberty, both Koreans, Vietnamese, and Central and Eastern Europeans, wanted to have this place of memory for all of us, one united place. And obviously, Ottawa, the capital city of Canada, is famous for having national memorials. The first number of years were quite challenging in terms of fundraising, and really demonstrating that this particular project, which is funded in conjunction with the federal government, can actually stand on its own. 

In 2012, divine intervention tapped me on the shoulder, and I showed up with perhaps a different set of skills, and this is where you and I began that journey together. The idea was not to compete with Lady Liberty in Washington, D.C. But Jan, at least with this memorial, we’ve got something in Canada that is ten times bigger than the American thing. And I think that was a funny thing too, that the memorial devoted to the memory of victims of communism in Canada, within the parliamentary precinct of Ottawa, which is the equivalent of the mall in Washington, D.C., in terms of its importance and prominence, is like there’s no other. This is the biggest memorial, and it’s designed in such a way that it’s all-inclusive. It gives every community, any community, a really distinctive chance to claim its own ownership of it.

Mr. Jekielek:

There were moments when there were questions if this would even go ahead at all, right? 

Mr. Klimkowski:

To a certain extent, yes. 

Mr. Jekielek:

What happened? 

Mr. Klimkowski:

One may say quite honestly that the people in power in Canada, some of them, not all of them, were closely inclined to what we can call a Marxist-Leninist ideology. So for them, being in a position of power, to see the memorial executed, built, and established in Ottawa was at least an uneasy thing. So initially, in 2015, the location was changed to perhaps make it a bit less visible, if you will. Coincidences are wonderful. 

It happens that this place where the memorial, viewers will see, is placed today, is actually in terms of viewership much, much more accessible and much better. Confederation Boulevard runs through the heart of Ottawa, giving quite unique exposure to components of light related to this memorial at night. So even for the accidental witness of this memorial, today’s location in my mind is wonderfully better.

Mr. Jekielek:

Why don’t we go out to the memorial and check it out?

Mr. Klimkowski:

Here we are at the memorial. Welcome to the heart of this nation. You cannot be more central in Canada than this spot. Because we are downtown. Behind us, you can see the buildings of Parliament. In front of us, there’s a newly developed second downtown of Ottawa, if you will. It’s still in the planning process, but this will be a new home to our major hockey team, the Ottawa Senators, and there’s a lot of stuff recently crushed by the don’t even go there and so in terms of foot traffic and coincidental visitors, right, it’s perfectly placed because it invites you to come and check it out. 

This is a Canadian equivalent of the American Mall between the Capitol and the Lincoln Memorial. Typically, you need special permission to get anything built both in Washington and it is the same in Ottawa. So to have this common memory place in the heart of our nation is really, really nice. This is the Wall of Remembrance and it’s divided into two separate parts. This is the front. These two spots are reserved for the official interpretation of what this memorial is all about. That interpretation on this side will be in both official languages. And that side is devoted to the largest, the most generous participants in this project. 

So both organizations as well as individuals who made rather significant donations of both time and money. In the back, you will eventually see the mosaic of names devoted to the grassroots level. The idea was to collect stories of a thousand, just one thousand Canadians and tell the visitors who will come to visit here why they found refuge in Canada, why they came, and why their families escaped communism? I said, I’m the first one with my donation and my story. I want to join 999 others to join me, so this would be a thousand. 

A thousand is just a tiny, tiny percentage of a hundred million people that were killed by communism since the beginning of the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917. We clearly cannot put every name of every victim from around the globe. So we came to the different communities and we said, listen, here is the idea. Why don’t you just tell us what your family story is all about? We ended up with 600 distinctive names that we would know and recognize as those who were engaged in fighting against communism. They were victims of communism, but above all, Jan, this is really devoted to those who found a home here.

Mr. Jekielek:

What are these actual names going to look like here? I’m trying to imagine.

Mr. Klimkowski:

So they’ll be small plaques and as you can imagine, there’ll be a large plate to which individual names are basically technically screwed on. They are not placed alphabetically; they are not placed by ethnicity or religion. They represent the true Canadian mosaic. So the idea is that at the end of the wall, there’ll be a QR code which you can scan. And you can type in on your phone the name of the individual that you’d like to explore. And then that is a wonderful tool of education and exploration for all of us.

Mr. Jekielek:

This is so important. This is so important to me. Thank you for making this happen. Why don’t you kind of tell me a little bit about what all these things mean, all these tubes. 

Mr. Klimkowski:

Those bronze rods, and obviously I’m speaking on behalf of the artist who won the competition because he verbalized this in the best way. This represents the living calendar. The main theme of this is to come from the darkness of winter, the solstice of winter, which is here, the 22nd of December, all the way to a sunny day like we’re experiencing today. And the analogy is that it’s the vast darkness of oppression of communism versus the light. Light is life, and life is in Canada, because you’re enjoying your prosperity, your freedom, and democracy. And every single day of the year is at the plateau of this memorial.  

For example, we move to, let’s say, April the 30th. April the 30th for the Vietnamese community in Canada and globally is the day of the fall of Saigon, when the lives of Vietnamese people changed. So the idea, Jan, is that every single community can come and commemorate the importance of their own individual dates. The calendar is vast, right? It’s 365 days. So you will see June 4th is a special date for the victims of the Tiananmen Square massacre in Beijing, China. 

But it’s also the day of freedom of the solidarity people because June 4th of 1989, the same day, led to the new elections, semi-democratic elections that arguably led to the fall of communism in Europe later in November of the same year. So clearly having this long calendar and the space to really pay attention to your own dates, but also to use this as an educational tool for other communities is pretty cool. 

So you see, this is one of the few hundred mementos that the people on the Wall of Remembrance have received. And if you see the top piece here, it’s taken from the bronze rods that are within this vast memorial. And every single piece is distinct. It is different; it has a different cut. It’s almost like being at the Berlin Wall in 1989 and chiseling your own piece and just keeping it for the next generations to cherish. So technically your family, you possess a living piece from Ottawa, from this Canadian memorial to the victims of crime.

Mr. Jekielek:

Thank you for showing me this incredible monument. But also the design needed to be changed. Now, why is that?

Mr. Klimkowski:

It was changed because the government decided to do so. I think the change of the government is a reflection of the change of ownership. The previous design was a bit more explicit. It was almost poking you in the eye. The design was obviously in terms of architectural delivery, it shrunk, but it was vivid. It really talked about victims. And I can only assume that the government, the new government in power at that time, decided that that’s not the best image that they want. 

Initially, I was struggling with this idea because, as you can imagine, me being obsessed with this project and leading this for quite a long time, it was almost like someone just chopped me off, so to speak. But then eventually I grew to embrace today’s design. And I think that because the Arc of Memory is so unique in terms of architectural design, it potentially can even stimulate more conversations. 

And clearly we need to recognize this, Jan, that any memorial, any monument, when it’s erected, should be erected in a way that sparks conversations. It provokes you to think about why this memorial is here and what’s the purpose of it. I’ll give you one example. There’s a wonderful monument of General Tadeusz Kościuszko in Lafayette Square in Washington facing the White House. The average individual would not know why, but yet that memorial, that monument of the General is placed for a specific reason. And if someone wants to find out why, well, that’s a thought-provoking placement and a monument.

Mr. Jekielek:

Tadeusz Kościuszko, of course, some people know him as Kosciusko because that’s the name of the bridge on the BQE [Brooklyn-Queens Expressway] in New York City. But Tadeusz Kościuszko was a Polish general. He came to fight in the American Revolution. He was a fort builder and built West Point. And he also taught them how to fight and was one of the most trusted generals of George Washington.

Mr. Klimkowski:

We obviously wanted to replicate the kind of feeling with the memorial in Ottawa. Also, for your viewership, this is a really important point. I have always been in awe of the American families who come to visit the Vietnam War Memorial in Washington, D.C. That memorial created a pilgrimage for multiple generations. The Vietnam War ended many years ago, and yet American families come to visit the fallen from the first one to the last one, and they come up to the memorial and they scribble the name, and they frame that piece of paper. They take it back to Austin, Texas, to Timbuktu, wherever they go. 

The idea was that we need to erect a place that would spark the same pilgrimage, the same need for a family. If you have a small Chinese immigrant family that lives in Chilliwack, British Columbia, and the school trip brings them here, they can find their own family. They can replicate the same experience. That child can come back to the community and say, look, this is the name of my grandfather. He came here and he gave us prosperity and safety and a really good life in Canada because he didn’t want to be oppressed in mainland China. So I think the design and its meaning have evolved, but I don’t think that today’s memorial is any less in terms of its design, location, and it’s our baby. We grew to love it.

Mr. Jekielek:

So it was inaugurated in the fall. But also, this year you’re going to have some kind of grand opening or something? Explain that to me. 

Mr. Klimkowski:

As you can imagine, clearly we just had a federal election in Canada. And in terms of the execution of the final elements of this memorial, it’s always dependent on the Minister of Canadian Heritage. The mosaic of names, if you will, is still under development and conversation. And here is why, and this is a really important point too. There are certain bureaucrats who assume that if your name cannot be verified using Google, it means you must be hiding something. 

So because the commemoration is devoted to a large number of individuals whose verification cannot be completed due to due diligence being beyond difficult, there’s resistance from federal government employees, if you will, that would, in terms of risk mitigation, try to avoid having another Nazi sympathizer like Yaroslav Hunka, a collaborator, among those names that are undefined. And clearly, we as proponents of the memorial were trying to explain to them that if you have any difficulty with the verification of any, we can put them aside for the time being. 

But clearly, you cannot deny the existence of Vaclav Havel, of the Dalai Lama, of Father Jerzy Popieluszko, and of others of that sort. So that’s where the second unveiling, if you will, the opening should take place. We don’t know when, but that would be the major educational component. If you do have a set of names that everyone feels comfortable with, then at least you can learn the story of the people who fought against communism or survived communism in that limited way, but still learn. And that’s really important. 

Mr. Jekielek:

Tell me about this because this was a big thing in the Canadian press for a while. There was the controversy about there being Nazi sympathizers and an attempt to put Nazi sympathizers on this Wall of Remembrance. Explain to me the reality of that. 

Mr. Klimkowski:

The reality is that one of the communities in Alberta decided to make a small donation and they commemorated someone on our website, not on the memorial, nowhere near the memorial itself, on our website with a small donation which did not warrant the verification and disclosure. That name was given to the infamous Ukrainian general who collaborated with SS Nazi powers during the Second World War. He was obviously promptly removed, but the stigmatization was used by those who are clearly opposed to the existence of the memorial itself. 

We just have the difficulty with the perception, with the notion that it’s being perpetrated by those who don’t want to see this memorial exist at all, where they say, if you cannot verify who the person is, well, it means that they must be a Nazi or at least a collaborator, which is far from the truth. But then how can we overcome that objection? And in Canada, as well as in the United States, a lot of historians and individuals with a professional background can be used for that type of verification process. 

The vast majority of them are white Anglo-Saxon liberal professors from a large university, and they have no idea how to verify a Korean, Vietnamese, or Chinese name.  How can you square that? I ask that question because the notion is that people who Think of this memorial through the prism of a middle-aged Canadian of European background. This is a memorial to those who still struggle. This is the memorial given to those who still want to escape. This is the memorial for those who are still sitting in prison, whose organs are being harvested. 

Let’s not forget the really important point, which is that not everything is European-centric. Especially in countries like the United States and Canada, we need to take this beyond. This is also why I was so happy that in Washington, you have a Lady Liberty from Tiananmen Square that represents the victims of communism. Such a symbolic icon, don’t you think? And no one in the United States or Canada will even think about the notion of collaboration by certain Chinese individuals with the Chinese Communist government. It is about the memory of all of us.

Mr. Jekielek:

You were actually, as a younger man, able to see Pope John Paul II when he came to Poland, famously under communism, and arguably changed the world. Tell me a little bit about your story, how you ended up in Canada. Maybe start off with a little bit about that day, and how it is that you came to Canada and are doing the work that you do now.

Mr. Klimkowski:

I think not only because of the patriotic background of my own family. I was born, grew up, and was educated in Warsaw, the capital city of Poland, very much within Armia Krajowa, which is the underground Polish army during the Second World War, ethos and the resistance against both Germans. By the way, I don’t call them Nazis; I call them Germans and obviously the Soviets, the Russians, and others who tore the city apart, basically not only burned down the majority of the city to the ground but the city of Warsaw is like the Phoenix that rose from the ashes. 

The resilience of it is based on multiple factors, and one of those factors is clearly people like St. John Paul II. When he was elected in 1978, his election to the highest office of the Catholic Church was not well received in Moscow. It was actually not even well received in his native Poland because people in power were deadly afraid of the spiritual awakening of the nation. The influence of the Polish church in Poland is like no other. The country was able to survive more than 120 years of partition and non-existence because of the traditions related to the Polish Church. 

So when he came to visit, he did the first mass for the youth, and clearly back then I did qualify as youth. So I walked for miles from my own parish in Warsaw overnight to have the Mass with him, and it was glorious but it was youth-oriented. The next mass was in one of the largest squares in Warsaw where, unbeknownst to the communist powers, as many as a million people showed up, and many of them, obviously, to get to that mass you needed to receive certain passes and invitations. 

Jan, you wouldn’t believe it, but my wife Isabella, knowing that you and I would meet, was going through certain documents and mementos of ours, and she actually found something. She found my own pass to the first Mass in Warsaw conducted by Pope John Paul II in June of 1979. He said to all of us, this is my land, this is your land, it’s our land, don’t be afraid, do not be afraid. And guess what? 

People were afraid no more, and this is why the very next year the Solidarity Movement began. This is where the resistance of 10 million Poles finally became vocal, and it was different in a way because Poland, just like Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and other countries, went through uprisings almost every few years. But that one was unique because the intelligentsia was hand in hand with the working class. You know, the people who were working on farms and in small villages, they were united. All of us were united. Why were we united? Well, because of this. 

And then if you look at your life and you become relatively successful in your professional life and you have a life of kindness and generosity in your new adopted homeland, which is, to me, Canada, and I, as you know, have lived here for most of my life, you do have a sense of obligation to give back, to follow that spirit. This is why I remember the story of one of his priests, Father Jerzy Popiełuszko, who was murdered in 1984 by the secret police. It’s one of those symbols of Polish resistance that people like me find beyond holy. 

His sacrifice, his message, his masses—he was not afraid. He was never afraid. He is the witness who became a rather significant person in the prosecution of those who perpetrated his murder. It was confirmed that Father Jerzy Popiełuszko was never afraid, even when he was dying. So in my tiny, tiny, small piece of existence, I didn’t want to be afraid either. 

Both in Poland and after coming to Canada, I felt that, obviously, there’s something more beyond the necessities of life and the rather prosperous life that I have witnessed in this country. You need to give back. I used to claim, Jan, that there’s no other Canadian project that would be as diverse ethnically and in many measures as this one is. It’s a wonderful reflection of what the humble North American societies, both in the United States and Canada, are.

Mr. Jekielek:

You actually mentioned to me that the Vietnamese community was particularly responsible for seeing this happen.

Mr. Klimkowski:

Right, and it warms my heart for one specific reason, and we’ve talked about this too. If you’re wealthy, if you’re rich, you can easily write a check for 100,000 bucks and make a donation that makes you feel good. But if you are making a donation of 20 or 50 dollars, that means that you have to skip your meal, or it’s something completely different. I’m not suggesting that the Vietnamese community in Canada needed to skip a meal to make the donation, but they were the most frequent donors in small amounts. They reflected something that I was longing for, which is the true grassroots movement in this country. 

Remember, the memorial, the monument, that’s a physical structure, right? In front of you, you have me as the spiritual reflection of it. There are lots and lots of Canadians, unsung heroes, who feel like me, who think like me, who want this country to be free, to be better, to be the land of opportunities for all—not the land of equal outcomes, but the land of equal opportunity. I think the idea that the Vietnamese community will rise up the way that it has is a reflection that we came here under many circumstances against our will, but we did adopt this land and we want to make it better.

Mr. Jekielek:

So you mentioned earlier in our conversation something incredibly important, that this memorial is not just for past victims of communism, but for the current victims of communism.

Mr. Klimkowski:

And the future victims.

Mr. Jekielek:

And perhaps the future victims as well. Explain that to me, how that manifests and how that’s important in the work being done around the memorial?

Mr. Klimkowski:

The living calendar, the Arc of Memory. Clearly, we have 365 different dates, and some of those dates are occupied by the events that are already defined. We know that happened. Well, there’ll be more. Sadly, we have room for them too. Why would we reserve room for them? Well, clearly, people who are less than sympathetic to this idea should be given the opportunity to learn from it. 

One of the main reasons for the existence of this memorial is to educate and say if you feel the symbols of Nazism are bad because of the Holocaust and all the things that German Nazis did to us, well, you better think that Soviet communism, Chinese communism, and communism at large are not only as bad, but they exist, and they continue to exist, and they continue to imprison and kill. 

My hashtag always is, communism kills. There’s no way of escaping this. No matter where you are, even if you, you know, many Canadians find the glory days in the middle of January on the beaches of Cuba. But they don’t see what is happening in the background, where individuals of the Cuban resistance movement are being imprisoned by today’s regime. We need to educate our fellow neighbors and friends and people that we work with that this problem exists. 

Mr. Jekielek:

Because I focus so much on the United States in my work, I don’t often talk about the level of Chinese Communist Party infiltration in Canada. We have some amazing reporters here. Of course, the Canadian Epoch Times reports on this quite a bit. Sam Cooper comes to mind. He kind of almost exclusively reports on this issue. How do you view this? 

Mr. Klimkowski:

When Germany was unified, the Stasi documents, the secret police files of all the agents and all the individuals, were unleashed, they were uncovered, and they were the subject of studies. Those studies, with no ambiguity, showed the instances of both academia, sports, culture, and any walk of life where East Germans were purposely sent to West Germany to spy, to infiltrate the German government. 

Famously, a personal secretary to Chancellor Wilhelm Brandt, this was many years ago, was found out to be a KGB agent, German-born. So obviously, we know by the virtue of looking at the archives and also by the virtue of looking at the archives in Moscow that regimes, no matter which country they come from, made this a national policy to send their own individuals. of different ranks, different professions, to basically infiltrate and impose their own views on the societies in the West. 

And I’ve mentioned to you that sometimes, because of our Western liberal historic background, we are gullible. We don’t anticipate the evils of communism executing something that we find immoral or against the rule of law. And yet, the Chinese are sending today, and we know this for sure in terms of interference in the Canadian elections, a vast number of Chinese individuals who would be no different than the sportsman or musician or whoever from East Germany who went to West Germany before the unification, and the large number of Russian intellectuals who were coming to the United States to teach at American universities. 

And look at what happened to American universities over the last 20 years, right? That will obviously continue unless people like you, programs like yours, and the advocacy of people like me say, “Don’t be gullible.” Now, having said that, we obviously don’t want to stigmatize the innocents. I mean, there are plenty of individuals who came to this country who have nothing to do with this. 

Mr. Jekielek:

Let me comment on this, actually, because the Chinese model of infiltration and intelligence gathering, of course, includes these types of exactly the sorts of agents that you described, a very deliberate task. But the Chinese approach to intelligence gathering is basically kind of all of the above. Everyone is incentivized heavily in various ways to do it. That doesn’t mean everybody does. They could. Their social credit scores will go up if they do. If they’re in very prominent positions and they’re not bringing anything back, someone will start asking questions. This is just their reality. But you’re right. We are a free society. We don’t go around and blanket stigmatize people. This presents, frankly, a huge problem for us as a free society, because we have this rule here; innocent until proven guilty. This is our approach. We think like that.

Mr. Klimkowski:

But that’s what I mean by the Western liberal way of thinking, right? We are so embedded in the Magna Carta and the rule of law and the set of ethical values that we basically think of each other that there’s no reason for us not to obey what is commonly accepted, right? Well, except when you’re a communist, right? And there’s also another aspect which is really important in that conversation, which is if you live here and your sister or your cousin is back in China and because of your actions they can be elevated in the credit score or attain another important position, is your family tie stronger, more important than the sense of belonging to your new country? 

That’s a challenging question, but obviously the moral answer is you just don’t do evil things, right? And yet, if you live under that regime for 60, 70 years or sometimes longer, the idea of moral cleanliness of your soul is getting clouded more and more every year. And I think there’s something—there’s another conversation to be had, but there’s something to be said about the, they call it the Soviet psyche. That person who grew up under communism is not the same person that grew up in the Western democratic rule of law-based system. Their perception of day-to-day life and morality and all the other stuff is just, it’s just clouded. 

Mr. Jekielek:

Something that I’ve been thinking about a lot is this idea of the distinction between collective rights and individual rights. And what I mean here is we have this idea, I think, in the U.S. and Canada, that it’s good and right to do things for the greater good. But this idea of the greater good, in that sometimes the individual or some individuals get sacrificed for the benefit of the many. Hence the distinction between collective and individual rights.

Mr. Klimkowski:

I’ve been an investment advisor for all of my professional life for almost 35 years. And I am a lifelong student of a Scottish professor, Adam Smith. And I’m of the school that the betterment of the individual benefits society, not the other way around. If you take care of yourself and you do the things that are right and you are on the journey of making your own life, your family’s life, and the life of your closest family as good as it is possible, then that will lead you to helping your neighbors, your immediate society in your town, in your city, and then that rises up to nationhood. 

There’s something to be said about the idea that individual well-being, wellness, and financial security lead to charitable behavior, and then that charitable behavior elevates society at large. Why am I saying this? Because, obviously, that is in complete contrast to the notion that there’s an elite of people that know better, and they will tell you what’s good for society and what’s not. And they will sacrifice you when the time for sacrifice is required. Required by whom? Who makes the decision? Is it a grassroots decision or is it a top-down decision? 

Typically, it is a top-down decision. The lockdowns during Covid are the best example of a top-down direction and decision. And clearly, it is based on the notion that we know nothing and we should listen to some people who know better. To put the restriction and prohibition on you traveling to your own cottage by the lake where there’s no one in the vicinity for a few miles at least, that’s ridiculous. 

So I am of the school where there should be some kind of fine balance between. I think that’s what life is always about. But I am also very much, not only through economics, but in terms of your faith, the set of your values, of the school, that it’s the family unit that makes it happen. The love between the father and the mother and the next generation of children, the set of rules and values that you give to the next generation will allow that generation to pass this along to the next generation. And if you have a breakdown of that family unit because the communist regime or any elite-based regime says, we don’t like this because we don’t have enough control, and for the betterment of society, we’re going to divide that unit, I have a problem.

Mr. Jekielek:

I think you hit the nail on the head. In this situation where there’s this view of collective rights, which, by the way, that’s the view that the Chinese Communist Party explicitly is promoting in places like, for example, the UN Human Rights Commission, of which it’s a member, curiously. Someone gets to choose. Someone there is deciding who is more valued, and that is very important for us.

Mr. Klimkowski:

William Styron wrote a book called Sophie’s Choice, and it was about the mother and a couple of her children. And she was to choose which of the two is to live and which one to die. Is this the society that we want? Is this the society that the Chinese government can impose on us and tell you which child of yours is to be sacrificed? And I know I’m exaggerating this, but I’m doing this to make the point. I think the beauty, the benefit of living in North America, both in the United States and in Canada, is that we can openly say, no, we don’t agree to that.

Mr. Jekielek:

Ludwik, this has been an amazing conversation. A final thought as we finish up?

Mr. Klimkowski:

I don’t know how this happened. I find it a blessing. But the Memorial to Victims of Communism in Ottawa exists. I would be sincerely grateful to all Canadian and American families if you can find in your heart to travel to Ottawa at some point to visit that memorial, and to just take this message and be our ambassadors, not only in North America, but also in the countries that your ancestors came from. 

Spread the news. Be grateful for what I’m grateful for, which is the ultimate exhibit of the freedom that I get to exercise. As a chair of, Tribute to Liberty, Memorial to Victims of Communism-Canada, a Land of Refuge, that gives me immense pleasure in knowing that there are good people out there who want this memorial to come alive. 

Mr. Jekielek:

Ludwig Klimkowski, it’s such a pleasure to have you on the show.

Mr. Klimkowski:

Thank you.